Referendum

182 Replies

I'm not getting involved with the politics but if we leave the EU the lives of all ex-pats living in the EU will almost certainly become much more difficult and expensive, through increased health costs and the termination of reciprocal benefit agreements, together with house prices falling as Brittany becomes a less attractive place for Brits to move to.  My understanding is that nearly all UK passport holders with the exception of those who have lived outside the UK for more than 15 years are still eligible to vote, there's plenty of advice on how to do so online.  With opinions so finally balanced your vote will make a difference.

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JohnP-390097 1455716592

I know it is tempting but I wish people would stop speculating and scaremongering. No one knows how the vote is going to go or indeed when it will be held. No one knows what, if anything, will happen with regard to recipricol health arrangements, pensions, house prices or exchange rates. To the best of my knowledge none of this has even been discussed among the powers that be and all of which have a bearing or not depending on the outcome of a vote which we don't know when is going to take place. And let's not forget cameron has promised a vote on EU membership before. He is a politician, he only lies when his lips move.


When we get some definate proposals and a date for the referendum, there will be something to discuss, for now lets wait and see.


 


 

Dibbyspot 1455716811

A very good point - everyone who can should vote! Too bad UK politicians lack the democratic spirit to make voting mandatory as in Belgium and Australia.


The UK leaving the EU will reduce any UK originating funds; rentals pensions etc as the value of Sterling will fall significantly on a Brexit vote Other changes will take time  and if UK does go for exit it is likley Scotland will break away to stay in. 

Cookatreat 1455717066

Not wishing to get involved with politics too .......... !  ........ But as the subject has been raised , 


there is a chance to stop the creation of a United States of Europe that is being forced on the people by unaccountable officials , the EU accounts have not been signed off, the people of Europe are not listened too and there is an alternative to big government and big corporations .


there does seem to be some on here that wish to promote the EU but run away from the facts . 


I hope that we make a vote based on an open future for our children and grand children , and not one based on the pension benefits some receive !!


i do not want to tie future generations to an outdated structure that does not work , I would like the freedom to change when we need , interact with the whole world and be friends with whoever we want , when we want . 

geegee42 1455717776

I've been taking a lot of interest in this EU in out business and it seems to me that no one has any idea whatsoever about any of it, you have the bring back control of our borders bit, right to make our own laws bit, the we are not being told what to do by faceless blokes in suits bit, British jobs for British people bit, the taking all our benefits bit, put in more than we get out bit, but the bit I like the best is they come over here get a free house, a car , a job, free health care plus thousands in benefits. You then have the what about the financial benefits to the UK of being members of the EU. I wonder which way the vote will go?.

oldminiman-10052272 1455718645

I completely agree, speculation is both dangerous and worrying.  I think the deal will be watered down and I suspect lies will be told to persuade a yes vote, who knows.  I underst the current health care arrangement where by the UK pay a percentage is an arrangement between Countries and outside the remit of the EU.  I am in the process of moving back to France and I for one am not worried.  I remain convinced of a yes vote although to be honest it is not my first choice and had I not been moving back then I old vote for out.  Since my return to the UK in 2012 I have learnt to look after No1 first as to be honest over here that is all you have and can rely on.  Let's wait and see is my advice.

oldminiman-10052272 1455718956

Sorry for typo errors,

noblesse-404553 1455730021

Those who think that the French are so glad to have us here that post-Brexit will be the same as before, have a look at the results of this poll in today's Le Figaro


http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualites/2016/02/17/01001-20160217QCMWWW00134-souhaitez-vous-que-la-grande-bretagne-reste-dans-l-union-europeenne.php


Just in case the results of the poll don't show up in the link, with 11,697 people responding, 30% wanted us to stay and 70% did not!


 

pilot-425170 1455731953

I think this posting is very unwise, and very premature, as people have said no one knows what the consequences will be so no point in speculating, or scaremongering and certainly no point in a discussion at the moment. Please people find something better to do.

JohnP-390097 1455732068

Just another classic case of misrepresentation. Firstly the poll is asking whether the French want the UK to stay in the EU, NOT whether they want us here in France and secondly the French won't be voting anyway if and when the UK gets a referendum so it is irrelevent.

geegee42 1455740151

The only question of any relevance is can the EU afford to lose the UK's membership money, the next relevant question is what will happen to the two million migrant workers in the UK, they must be far far more worried about the outcome than any of us, a big percentage are on minimum wage and receiving tax credits, even if they continue to work in the UK the UK government could easily bring in benefits restrictions for migrant workers, a lot would then probably return to their own countries which would then put an enormous strain on various countries own benefits systems. Mr Cameron has now got the rest of the EU over a barrel, they have no choice but to cave in to all his demands, I would be very very surprised if the UK ends up voting out.

la Musique 1455795102

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12162009/Britain-outside-the-EU-would-stand-tall-as-a-free-and-prosperous-nation.html


 

regwingfield@gmail.com 1455795372

at last some polotics are actually coming out in the open,instead of worrying about what the farmers are ,doing, is there going to be a food shortage?

all4one-10057182 1455797824

The total population of Brittany (Depts. 22.29,35,56) is about 3.5million of which 13.500 are registered as British origin - a drop in the ocean - so hardly likeley to cause any major upset to the french economy and absolutely no reason why house prices should plummet !

geegee42 1455799542

The biggest problem is what to do about the two million migrant workers currently in the UK, how is that going to work. I can't really understand why Cameron is touring round trying to get agreement to his ideas for EU reform, financially the rest of the EU needs the UK far more than the UK needs the EU, if I was camaron I think I would simply say agree or we are off.

rentagoat 1455800065

Sorry England is in the eu.So there is only one vote that is out.England survived before eu.And it will again.Only one goverment thats enough. No more highly pay suits. That all thanks.

Fitter 1455802294

The UK sells about 50% of it's production to EEC countries.


EEC countries sell about 10 % of their production to the UK.


Guess who needs the EEC more than the EEC needs them?

geegee42 1455803134

Who sells what to who all depends on which figures you believe, but when I was a lad I seem to remember the UK being deep in the contents of your average fosse, they then crept cap in hand desperately trying to get into the club, we all know the EU is getting a bit ahead of its self with the drive towards united states of Europe, and also a little bit premature in bringing in countries that financially were no where ready, but overall the long term plan is sound but just needs more time.

Watty-794352 1455812573

Putting to one side for the moment the many implications which could affect us ex-pats, has anyone even considered the innumerable implications affecting the average Briton resident in the UK?


For example:


Will everyone have to have a new British Passport?


Will all EHICs be invalid? 


Will travellers returning to the UK be restricted to bringing in just 2 bottles of wine (or whatever the previous limit was)?


Will pets be allowed to travel easily?


etc. etc.    ...   the list goes on and the mind boggles!

dozygirl 1455814503

rentagoat - 4 countries make up the United Kingdom or had you forgotten that.  England is only one of them.  Everything is not just England!

staffordian 1455815065

I reckon if the UK votes to come out of the EU the UK will break up.


I can't see the Scots and Welsh tolerating it if their vote is to stay in.It appears it's mostly the Little Englanders want out,we think we are far more important than we are.(I am English by the way) and a proud European.

geegee42 1455815104

It might be the United kingdom but the scots, Irish and welsh are the last remaining members of the British empire. But anyway if they do vote to leave it will probably take ten years to cut the cord and no doubt various offers will be made to renew membership, like exclusive use of ski slopes or Brits only beaches in various parts of Spain and Greece. If the UK thought it was better off out than in it would not have joined in the first place, British government's have always know the intention was a united Europe.

Cookatreat 1455819329

Such an important topic , yet we have some worrying about beaches , travel insurance , pension benefits or showing a dislike for their own country . Some sing the praises of a United States of Europe , say that we all knew that a United States of Europe was planned from the 1950's and openly promoted , then say they don't know the facts when details are discussed !


how many of the younger generations think of a new life in the Far East , the Middle East or South America ? France seems the choice of an older and fading generation , as are the restrictions of a United States of Europe , 


we need flexability in a global environment ,


corporate tax evasion , as just one example , can not be tackled as a region , we need to do that globally and the U.K. And France are big enough to sit at the negotiations as independent nations .


how is mass global migration going to be tackled on a purely European level , we need to include all Mediterranean countries and those where people are coming from  ?


please think of the younger generations and do not bind them into your old fashioned thoughts . 

tigre-979768 1455827207

I don't think the UK will leave the EU but if we do be sure the UK Government won't give a stuff about expats. Just look at the way UK citizens living in France have been treated over the Winter Fuel Allowance. This is a perfect example of how far they will go to cut back on paying out benefits if they have to.

red laverda 1455838048

The Europhiles in the UK talk utter garbage regarding the risks of Brexit. Just a few facts to start with....London now has the fifth largest french population of any city in the world, Brittany Ferries was started to deliver French farm produce to the UK, the UK is one of the German car industry's main export markets, the UK still has another enormous export market ie The Commonwealth. The simple truth is that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU. I love France and European culture. I have had a house in Brittany for twenty years and intend to spend most of my retirement there but I do not want to be ruled by an unelected corrupt commission. I also do not want to be told what to do by the Germans. My uncle was killed in WW2 at the age of 22 and I often think about what he gave his life for. The British and the French survived for hundreds of years before the EU so are quite capable of looking after their own futures. Big business controls the EU and just wants everyone to end up on the minimum wage. If you don't believe me just look at how rates have either stagnated or fallen for many jobs. Oh and by the way I work with a Nigerian who has just gained British Citizenship and she is voting for Brexit. She thinks that there are too many foreigners in the UK!

plouyepaul 1455844689

A United States of Europe is only the next step towards One World Government. So enjoy a glass of wine and stop worrying. It doesn't matter whether you vote in, out or not at all, the corrupt system will prevail unless a third revolution comes about. I'm all for that but aain it really won't ake a difference, to quote Frazer from Dads Army "we're all doomed". As with bygone wars and the general dumbing down of the population world-wide it's all too little too late. He who shouts loudest will be heard first, or shot depending upon where his ir her allegiences lay.


I believe I am unlikely to ever receive a pension because a politician/corporate big-wig will steal it as they have already done for millions of women. Stock up on the wine and stay happy! Life is simply too short to be stressed!

JohnP-390097 1455871982

Listening to you lot at the moment I bet the Samaritans are busy!

Alpacas 1455876126

Way back in the mists of time we voted for membership of the EEC (European Economic Community) which gave free trade between members and that seemed to work OK.  However I cannot remember any such vote being taken to become a member of European Union.  It just happened.  The EEC worked well without Buerocrats in Brussels and Strasburg deciding what was good for us.


Lets go back to the EEC then we can all be friends again !!

orme2 1455879830

We can't go back in time - it's against the laws of physics!  The world is not the same today as it was twenty years ago, let alone fifty years ago.  There are many things about the EU which need sorting out, but thinking that things will all be as they were before if we leave the EU is not very realistic.  Globalisation has happened.


 

Cookatreat 1455880389

it is not a case of going back in time , but it is worth noting that the United States of Europe was not openly proclaimed at the start and is still not spoken about in the uk .


the world has changed , an old fashioned centrally controlled United States of Europe is a broken idea that does not work and is not suited to a world with easier travel and communications .


we need to pass possibilities to the next generation , that means ending the united states of Europe .

Rat Catcher-10052281 1455881364

A point about UK leaving EU and having trading agreemnents with EU:


The EFTA (Norway, Switzerland, etc model) requires the members to acknowledge the Schengen agreement. Therefore, if UK left EU and joined EFTA (with Norway, etc) it would have to accept the Schengen Agreement. The borders with EU would be dismantled, not strengthened.


So any suggestion of a Brexit and UK joining EFTA is bunkum. It won't happen.


Much has been mentioned of the amount paid by UK into EU.


EFTA members have to pay into EU, without any influence, and nothing is returned. So if there is a Brexit and UK joins EFTA the payments to EU have been estimated to be about £4Bn per year. About half of what is currently paid, but we currently enjoy some influence, and the advantages of being in, which we would lose on Brexit.

geegee42 1455882785

All this in out chit chat by  Cameron and a few others is just smoke and mirrors to appease the anti EU members of the English (not British) public, the UK cannot stand alone without being in some part of the EU. If as planned the EU moves towards a form of united states of Europe which is inevitable, then the UK would be left completely out on a limb, the world is gradually moving towards trading blocks not individual trading partners, the UK needs to be part of the European block or it will fail. The days of the empire are over, the UK no longer has the financial clout to defend its own banking system, its carrying an enormous amount of debt, its military is incapable of carrying out any major deployments without the aid of other nations. I can't see how being part of a grand euro scheme really changes anything, France has been France for hundreds of years yet it still varies considerably from region to region, same applies to the rest of Europe, after all most of us by descent are Germans anyway.

Cookatreat 1455884239

Sorry geegee , you are wrong on all your points ........... again .......! 


you have stated in past posts that the United States of Europe was planned and openly discussed At the start .


only 100 years ago , France was a country of many different regions and languages , a united language spoken by the majority of it's people is a relatively new thing , Germany and a whole host of other countries are not "100's" of years old . Please look at your history .


The UK ( rightly or wrongly) did bail out its banks and was able to do so because it had its own bank and the pound  . 


the uk does have debt , but so does France , the EU and there are huge economic problems in Southern Europe .


it would be wrong for the UK to unilaterally 'go to war' on its own , building alliances across the world is what counts , but a nation should have their own right to decide how it participates within any collalition to respond to any given crisis .  


it seems strange that those supporting the EU , forcing an Orwellian future on people , have such dislike for the English and defend their arguments with fear and lies . 


Choose a flexible future of possibilities , give choices to the next generation and reject the broken idea of a United States of Europe .

orme2 1455884695

cookatreat said:


"we need to pass possibilities to the next generation , that means ending the united states of Europe"


If the British people want out, then so be it, but why should that mean 'ending the united states of Europe'?


 

geegee42 1455885514

France still is a country of many different regions and has indeed been France since not long after the Brits left, I didn't actually mention Germany or anywhere else for that matter, many people have been aware since the original inception of the EEC that ultimately it was hoped to lead to a complete union of all European states, Germany as a country has not existed for much more than a hundred years, it is a union of states has many different regions, it works, a large lump of it is part of Poland. I see no problem with Europe moving towards a form of united states of  Europe, I'm not a member of a particular tribe I'm a member of a race which needs for its own future and all our children's futures to learn to live and work together, no way do I wish to return to the days of little insular countries all worried about what everyone else is getting up to, spying on each other, all having little plans of their own, and if this means a united states of Europe followed by a united states of Earth then so be it.

Laurie Driver 1455887236

While browsing the various forums I read the following passage (unfortunately I can't remember where I read it or the name of the author) but because I found it so interesting I saved it and because it seems so relevant to this discussion I thought I'd share it with you.


**********************************************************************************************************************


The E.U is NOT about free trade and never was, it is about political control. It's one of the biggest lies ever foisted upon the UK/European people by those who assume control of us, and 'they' are stepping up their game

We have never been allowed a free market, it is a controlled market, otherwise oil would have been replaced in 1954 with Zero Point electromagnetic (free energy) when it was first successfully tested - based partly on Tesla's work.

We would have freed the 3rd world at the very least, instead of which we are still poisoning the whole of it - for vast profits to put into someone else's bank. We have not needed oil or fossil fuels for the past 65 years!

Currently our western leaders are mouthpieces for this elite. They are busily diluting our indigenous voting base, diluting out culture and side-lining out great history, to ready us for their one world government that cannot be voted out of office, like the E.U commission - in a post democratic era, only worse.
.
E.U. is a first stage towards their New World Order. One world under CCTV. You will comply. The States have NAFTA with the Americas to be conjoined in a similar way. Asia has China who are on-board with this Orwellian nightmare as they are used to ruling people with an iron fist.

So who are 'they'?



These are the insidious groups behind the New World Order which make up the shadow government without borders, headed by the Bilderbergers, the great unelected and answerable to no one. They own the banks, control the money supply and the massive Military Industrial Complex is theirs to command:

1. The Council on Foreign Relations
2. The Bilderbergers
3. The Trilateral Commission
4. The International Banking Cartel
5. The oil cartel
6. Members of various intelligence organizations
7. Select members of the military junta.

List is courtesy of Hon Paul Hellyer Canadian cabinet minister (ret.)



The only thing this group fear is exposure, yet this Beast Cabal is hidden in plain sight, since that makes their existence and their intentions even more unbelievable to the world.

If enough people did their own research and became aware and, in the first instance, avoided the controlled mainstream media and the E.U like the plague these people and organisations could be stopped. They are NOT your friends.


***********************************************************************************************************************


At no 2 above (highlighted by me) the author of the passage mentions the Bilderbergers and because the only thing that frightens me more than the Bilderbergers is the fact that the vast majority of people know absolutely nothing about them I'm copying a link below that will explain all about them.


a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-true-story-of-the-bilderberg-group-and-what-they-may-be-planning-now/13808">http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-true-story-of-the-bilderberg-group-and-what-they-may-be-planning-now/13808

br />

And the following link will give further informaton about what all of this EU nonsense is really about.


 

Please people, for the sake of future generations, click on the link and spend a few minutes reading something you wont find in your daily paper or on the television.

 


Regards,

 

Laurie.

geegee42 1455888526

The only problem I have with this theory is certain financial institutions and media outlets owned by members of this group are trying to promote the downfall of the EU, unless of course this is a ruse to  lull us all into a false sense of security, next it will be black aristocracracy and shape shifting reptilian aliens from another dimension. But anyway vote should be sometime in  June, Cameron won't get everything he's after but will get enough to recommend staying in,  Scots, irish, welsh majority will vote to stay, English vote is too close to call. It doesn't affect me been here too long but I would prefer it if vote was stay, I don't want to start paying import duty on stuff from poundshop.

Rambling Wizard 1455890306

I'm an expat and I'm voting to leave EU. I like the idea but unfortunately the EU is turning into the united states of Europe. De-centralistion of power is the only way forward when he have so much corruption at the higest levels.

orme2 1455895403

True cynic that I am, I don't think decentralisation would get rid of corruption, nepotism, greed or selfishness.  Wherever you go, you find that 'who you know' counts, on a micro just as much as a macro scale.  Tax dodging, fiddling the books, cash in hand work and the 'it won't matter if I just tip this small amount of old car oil in the drains, will it' (pollution) all exist on a local level.  It's all part and parcel of the same thing.


 


 


 


 

Tregadilet 1455896649

The "Connexion" paper has printed an article on the Brexit see http://www.connexionfrance.com/Brexit-Britons-France-pound-sterling-value-Cameron-EU-17730-view-article.html.


Pretty depressing reading,  Pound slumps, all  will have to apply for Carte Sejour or be  asked to leave, Pay for health care and worse!


And this from June next.

Ullrich 1455898031

If my conviction is right that the EU is nothing but the huge market created to maximize profits, the decision of the people will not make a difference at all as the people don't make any decisions. Either manipulation and scaremongering prior to the referendum will guarantee the UK stay in or the government will find ways to ignore the people's will.

geegee42 1455898554

Ullrich what's the general feeling to all this in your part of Germany?.

Rambling Wizard 1455902131

I agree decentralisation is not going to change things other than stopping complete control as a single body.


There will always be greed, corruption etc while our environment promotes that kind of thinking. For example the majority of crime is caused by poverty and the biggest scam of it all is that it would actually be cheaper to make sure nobody was poor than it is at punishing people as a deterrent. That's not even to mention the effects it would have on humanity as a whole.  Crime happens and whether it is good or bad it is inevitable while we live in a world creates scarcity.


With today's technologies we could eradicate poverty easily but it never happens? The world is run by utterly insane people who do not value human life.


I used to believe that the human experience was actually going to make it. But unless people wake up and quickly we are heading for total disaster. By 2050 we will need 3 Earths if we continue with our economic model. So before then resources will go up in price, people will lose jobs have no buying power. So business will lose more staff and the cycle will continue to a grinding halt. This doesn't even take into account technological unemployment.

Gleaner 1455902131

Greece looks like it has scuppered the chance of a deal. I imagine a June 23 rd vote will be announced by early next week. Outcome of which looks likely to be the out vote gets it. If all this happens......I'm moving to Ireland.

Laurie Driver 1455903733

The Telegraph - Friday 19th February 2016


 


Britain outside the EU would stand tall as a free and prosperous nation.


 


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12162009/Britain-outside-the-EU-would-stand-tall-as-a-free-and-prosperous-nation.html


 


 

geegee42 1455903829

North or south. It might be big fence round Greece and Greece out, its what's looking on the cards at the moment.

NigB 1455904241

Been in France since 2003 love living here, but i still care for my home land of the Uk, and i will be voting out, the Eu has become not a nice organization and you will soon have Turkey, Albania, and about 4 others wanting to join the Eu and this will give freedom to another 150 million fee access. no one knows what will happen, but i am voting out.

Ullrich 1455905814

Well Geegee42, basically there are two different views: the official opinion orchestrated in the mass media does not even allow the thought of the EU faltering. This is not an alternative that is considered. For good reason, I suppose, as the German (corporation and bank)s probably have benefitted most from the EU. For the average people there was not much in it except maybe for safe jobs paid for by lower wages.


The man in the street does not seriously think about the EU as a problem. What they oppose is the huge influx of immigrants which they blame on Ms Merkel and demand that to be stopped. Political movements like Pegida (worth some 10% in recent polls) even demand the use of the military to fend off the masses of immigrants. For reasons I do not understand they do not generally connect that in any way to the EU and its success (or better the lack thereof). On the other hand, if the German people were asked whether to leave the EU or stay in (and wouldn't be brainwashed by the media before), I wouldn't bet too much on the EU.

geegee42 1455906151

I'm quite looking forward to all the fun if its an out vote, it will be like trying to untangle yourself from the biggest spiders web imaginable, after all the UK couldn't remain in like a silent partner similar to Norway because same rules and regs would still apply, they have to go for a complete clean break, they have no choice, we could end up with England operating on its own and Scotland, Wales and northern Ireland applying for EU membership, what about Jersey and Guernsey no one seems to have mentioned them yet, do they get a vote?.

Laurie Driver 1455908007

Hi Geegee42,


In response to your question about people in Jersey and Guernsey getting a vote, well the post below that I read on another forum would suggest they don't and the guy is asking that people sign the petition he's started to try to ensure they are allowed to.


johnrhysdavies 



There will not be a Referendum on whether Britain should leave the EU. The wording specifies the legal entity the "UK" which conveniently excludes the 250,000 British people living in Jersey Guernsey and the Isle of Man. These were never consulted in the original Treaty of Accession , have to comply with all EU directives, and will all be profoundly affected whatever the outcome of the Referendum. They have been part of Britain for 900 years. Their men fought against the Armada, against Napoleon and Hitler. They serve today. May I ask you readers to sign my petition to Parliament to enfranchise them for this defining moment in British history.


You will find it at
https://petition.parliament.uk... [1]


Thank you all.



 

Iguana Rock 1455908716

Surely if all Britons living in other parts of the EU may be affected in some way so will all other Europeans living in Britain. I really dislike the scaremongering being written in some of the gutter press. 

geegee42 1455909854

Apparently there are two million migrant workers in the UK, mostly in England, mostly employed, a lot work in London in the banking sector, whether half the figures are true or not I have no idea but apparently there are thirty thousand plus nurses working within the NHS who originate from all over Europe, I wonder how many doctors and other specialists also work within the NHS, most of the agricultural sector is propped up by eastern Europeans, it seems an awfull lot of people have no idea whatsoever what an out vote will mean. A little while back I was in Canterbury, it was heaving with people mostly foreigners, all in the shops spending money, probably most of them lived and worked in the area, I wonder what they are thinking about all of this brexit business.

red laverda 1455910941

Turkey wants to join the EU even though only 3% of its land mass is in Europe and is poorer than every current member...sheer madness. Forget about everything that has been said apart from this one simple question. Do you want to be ruled by Westminster whose government you can easily change or Brussels where British interests are usually ignored and whose council of ministers is unelected. If you want to end up a slave in an undemocratic nightmare vote to stay in.

kate.fitch@orange.fr 1455916734

it is now 20.00 hrs on Friday the 19th of February. The EU elite have been locked in debate for several days. If we believe the news bullitins the days have been punctuated by breakfast, mid morning food break, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner and so on and so forth.  I am absolutaly insensed with the crass insensativity of this bunch of self interested, self satisfied  egomaniacs. This sums up the whole  EU  project, while there are roughly a million displaced people, without shelter, warm clothes a bed and most of all FOOD, banging on the doors of Europe, these EU ***** are merrily troughing through the day.  The sooner this edifice is brought down the better. I truely believe there is something  sinister if not down right evil behind this set-up and the mention of the Bilderbergers involement is not new.  Has anyone stopped to think how the EU will treat Great Britain if it loses it's bottle and votes to stay in??   All this hoo haa over the last week is just smoke and mirrors, the reall issues are being hidden under this pile of nonsense.

geegee42 1455918089

I wonder what would be happening now if the US and UK bankers hadn't nearly bankrupted the world, Roumania, Bulgaria and Hungary hadn't joined the EU, Mrs Merkel hadn't invited all and sundry into Germany, the Greeks hadn't lied to get into the Euro and the UN had nipped the isis problem in the bud from day one, most people would just get on with their lives as normal.

Cloudgreyandblue 1455920029

So how many ex pats will vote and exactly how do we do this??

Ullrich 1455920042

We will never know geegee42. I still nurture the hope that somehow we will gafiate .... I know it sounds naive ...

Cookatreat 1455920890

I'm afraid geegee it was bankers the world over that got in trouble and are still doing it , French and German banks especially , not to mention the hidden Chinese debts , 


what is the problem with Romania , Bulgaria and Hungary , and is it fair to group these three countries together ?


and in relation to the Greeks , it was the EU that advised them to change the paperwork and German big business that paid bribes to individual Greeks to sell the country items they did not need , that has saddled the people of Greece with huge debts .


if Greece was out of the euro , they may have the opportunity to expand trade and tourism . 


 

Gleaner 1455921186

I don't know if this is legit, but take a look......"European leaders agree 'brexit' deal'!!!!!


http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160220/1035066601/eu-brexit-deal.html


 

Gleaner 1455921311

If that is to be believed, a June referendum is to take place!

Ullrich 1455921381

Great source, Gleaner, sounds absurd - and therefore, probably is true ...

Gleaner 1455921494

Yes, I must admit, I am tending to not believe it myself, but ...........

Gleaner 1455921604

Well; it seems legit.......................now being announced on breakingnews

Gleaner 1455921724

Sources corroborating it are....


http://www.breakingnews.com/


http://news.sky.com/


 


 


 

geegee42 1455921908

Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary were not ready to join the EU, French and German banks were drawn into the Ponzi schemes, the Greeks financial woes were far worse than the EU thought they were, but doesn't really matter now who is to blame, you can't blame membership of the EU for all these woes, I was born in England, educated in England, lived and worked in England for over forty years, all the woes it has now it has always had, everything has been underfunded for years, membership of the EU has not caused any of the problems associated with it, they were already there, if the UK votes out the problems will still be there, its not some magic fix all that people are being led to believe, it won't be long before the property market implodes and the whole lot goes down the swany and no doubt this will also have been caused by the EU.


 

Ullrich 1455923159

Isn't all that a result of putting profit over reason and decency?

geegee42 1455924087

Profit is and always will be the name of the game, there are over seven billion of us roaming all over the planet and everyone of us is expendable, some a lot more expendable than others.

orme2 1455924489

Not only is it profit over reason and decency, Ullrich, but it's also more and more profit.  Those demanding profit aren't content with a small profit; profit has to be a bigger percentage every year.  A company makes a profit of 3% one year?  It has to make a profit of 5% the next to satisfy the number crunchers and financial guys.  In a finite world, it's total madness.


 

geegee42 1455925122

That's correct orme, its like all this in out the EU business, its being promoted as beneficial for the UK to leave the financial constraints of the EU, various newspapers have been fermenting anti EU sentiment from as far back as I can remember, what with having to put porc in your sausages to having a certain shaped banana, somewhere behind the scenes someone has calculated their own financial benefit which might not benefit the UK one way whatsoever. I remember when the pound went down the swany under major and the English city gent had no qualms at all of being part cause of it, he said it was just business and the aim of business was profit, follow the money it's always followed the money.

Cookatreat 1455928156

Democracy is central , the EU is not a democracy , it is run by the EU council of ministers , it's accounts have not been certified , and it is unaccountable to the people  , 


 


big is not always best and I would like to see government held to account at a more local level and allow the people to vote out one party if they want to and not be bound by the dictates of the last.


i don't think government from a European superstate is the democratic choice .

geegee42 1455929129

Is any government really a totaly democratic choice, you have a conservative government that more people didn't want than wanted, when they get in they never do what they said they would when you voted for them, the french have a  slightly fairer system, but still the government do not do what they were voted in to do, they tell us they do things in the  national  interest, things that benefit the whole nation that never do, they have blaming everyone else rather than themselves down to a fine art, by now you would think they would be able to manage an economy but it's quite apparent they cannot, its like all this fuss with the EU, in it or out of it will make no difference whatsoever to the ordinary citizens but somehow a lot of ordinary citizens think it will, bit like a high speed train to Birmingham, and we certainly all need one of those.

John Stonker 1455967879

If Britain leaves the EU things for Expats will be different indeed, those who do not work here will more likely have to start paying into the French health system. We will all have to demand work permits and identity cards, I am sure there will be some big differences for us if this change goes ahead. Rest assured the French government will do their best to give us a hard time, let’s face it from what I have read on here about people’s problems with French bureaucracy at the moment, it will only get worse. I for one will tough it out, after all I married into a French family, but hey I am not kidding myself, that does not mean I will be treated any different. No one really knows how we will be affected, but if your intensions are to live and eventually die in France then taking up double Nationality may be the right thing to do or do the other thing, go home.      

Gleaner 1455968704

I note that Ladbrokes are saying  that the betting odds indicate that there is now a 69% chance of Britain remaining in the EU, 31%chance of leaving.

Ullrich 1455968727

If democracy is the decisive criterion, leaving the EU is the only option as it is intrinsically anti-democratic. The planned TTIP will not make it one iota better. Au contraire, a sizeable number of big wigs will enter the battlefield and claim a large slice of the cake.

Rat Catcher-10052281 1455968847

There have been many 'scare' posts in this discussion, one of which has been about other countries, such as Turkey, joining the EU.
it requires a unanimous vote by the exisitng member countries to allow new member countries to join! 


The EU is not an 'open-doors to all' organisation.


These 'scare' stories are simply not based on reality or probability.


Cometh the day, the hour, you can lobby your MEP to object to whatever subject is being discussed in EU Parliament. How many do?


No, they rely on urban mythology and politics of paranoia.

Anonymous 1455969630

"How many do?"


Only the corporate interests with big budgets set aside for bribes.

geegee42 1455969843

I know, rat catcher, I have read more fiction on the subject of the EU than anything else, most of the time the articles are headlined beside headlines like I cured my cancer, or found the face of Jesus on a biscuit or the the search for intelligent life continues on earth, people seem to have the impression that a little group of blokes can do whatever they like with rules and regulations within the EU, they don't seem to realise that the EU parliament votes on various laws, and that all governments have the right to veto, another group of people seem to have got a bit carried away with the fear of world domination by Blofeld and his pals. It's incredibly difficult to hide anything from anyone these days, it doesn't matter how much cash you have or how good your security is, there's always someone who can hack into it.

kervéor 1455971616

Only problem is JS ,France IS my home !

BELLE22-422003 1455971775

Just read the connexion article and even if only 1 per cent is likely then all those Brits in France voting to leave would be like Turkeys voting for Christmas.


See below.


Below we list some further areas which might be affected for Britons, which we have considered with input from Franco-British honorary avocat Gerard Barron. However we stress again this are only issues which could be affected and nothing is certain at this stage. It is also worth emphasising that many Britons lived happily in France before the EU. 

• Britons might need to apply for fixed-term carte de séjour permits to live in France and then reapply for renewal on a regular basis. They may need to fulfill certain conditions such as proving a required skill or having sufficient wealth not to be a burden on social security. It is possible that Britons would be asked to take a language test and be required to take lessons if their level was not sufficient, as is required for some non-EU citizens (though rules on this vary according to the person’s situation and the grounds on which they are applying for residence rights). The EU rule that people become ‘permanent residents’ after five years may no longer apply to Britons. 

• If this was the case, Britons would probably benefit from a transitional period in which they could if they wished sell up and to back to the UK. Values of properties in popular expat areas – especially for holiday homes - could therefore drop due to over-supply. 

• It is possible that, as with many other parts of the world, British state pensions for French residents would be frozen. If there was no ‘EU pension’ arrangement, a Briton’s pension for a period worked in France could be worth less when claimed. 

• Various UK benefits such as Personal Independence Payment or Employment and Support Allowance may no longer be ‘exportable’ to France. 

• Britain would no longer issue S1 forms allowing British pensioners to have French healthcare paid for by the UK. This might mean they would have to take out private health policies (whose cost would be likely to rise steeply), or it could mean tougher checks on pensioners’ means to make sure they are not a ‘burden’ to France, before allowing them to join the French system on the basis of paying in 8% of their income above €9,611. 

• If the S1 system stopped then British pensioners in France may no longer be able to obtain ‘free’ NHS healthcare on visits back to the UK. French residents may not be able to benefit from using an EHIC on visits to the UK, so would need high quality travel insurance instead because they may face charges for many types of care (though not, under current rules, for GP visits and for accidents and emergencies). The EU directive that permits French residents to travel to the UK for many healthcare procedures (apart from certain ones deemed very costly or requiring in-patient stays) and be reimbursed by Cpam with no prior authorisation may no longer apply. In general it may be hard to obtain Cpam authorisation for care in the UK to be reimbursed, as the EU S2 form authorisation system may not apply. 

• If they did not have S1s then British pensioners in France might have social charges at 7.4% levied on all British pension income. 

• Similarly, if they had had no S1s then British retirees living in France might not have qualified for refunds of social charges at 15.5% on income from capital and investments in 2012-2015 under the recent ‘De Ruyter’ ruling, as they could not have used S1s to show a lack of affiliation to French social security. (UK residents with French property might also not have qualified for any refunds, since the refunds result from an EU law on coordination of countries’ social security systems. UK residents may also have to once again pay a ‘fiscal representative’ to calculate their capital gains tax when selling French property). 

• Britain might no longer be bound by the EU directive that will shortly require its banks to allow residents in other EU countries, such as France, to open new accounts. 

• Sending a letter between the UK and France might cost more and using a mobile phone, whether for calls or internet, could cost more if using a French mobile in the UK. 

• Air travel could become more expensive. The chief executive of easyJet, Carolyn McCall, recently said a Brexit could cause a return to the days when flying was “reserved for the elite” because she said Britain’s influence in Europe had played a key role in keeping fares low. 

• It may no longer be possible for French residents to do a year in the UK as part of the Erasmus unviersity exchange scheme and students wanting to do full courses at UK universities might be charged high international rates. 

• Britons may not be able to vote in local mairie elections or become councillors and they could not vote for or be represented by a French MEP. 

• British people in France would for official purposes be considered étrangers (foreigners) and not Européens or communautaires

• British Prime Minister David Cameron and former UK ambassador to France Sir Peter Ricketts say there is a risk that ‘the Jungle could move to Dover’, because the strong UK-France cooperation at Calais relating to migrants seeking access to the UK may be disrupted. Sir Peter said France deploys 1,000 of its top riot police there. He said: “We get a secure border and the French carry a lot of the load. They are doing it because they see us as a very important ally in the EU. If that stopped, the incentives change for France.” Alternatively if France ceases to police the tunnel and port the burden may be placed on the ferry companies and Eurotunnel to prevent migrants boarding, which would put up ticket prices. 

• British driving licences may only be valid in France for one year before having to be exchanged. 

• Donations to British charities might no longer be tax deductible. 

• It may be harder for UK qualifications to be accepted, as EU mutual recognition rules would not apply and access to certain professions may be more limited. - 

geegee42 1455975185

All what is being mentioned in this overly long list only applys in the event of the UK becoming totally independent from the EU, having nothing to do with the EU whatsover, even if the vote is to leave there is no intention to cut the cord completely, this would be suicidal and probably lead to the complete demise of the UK , the plan is exit but operate similarly to Norway, this won't work either, so its all in or all out, no ifs buts or maybes.

JohnP-390097 1455976330

Nothing in this article is based on fact. This is just speculative sensationalism and headline grabbing scaremongering. Typical irresponsible journalism. Now that the date has been set for the referendum, there maybe some official response to the various questions which arise should UK choose to come out of the EU but until that happens, articles like this are neither imformative or helpful during a period of uncertainty for all expats in Europe.

Cookatreat 1455999312

Could someone please tell me the benefits of being in the EU ?


 

Ullrich 1456003687

Well, Cookatreat, depends what you believe in. The make-believe argument is that the EU promotes free * (the star is a variable which can be substituted with anything you wish). Ain't that great???

orme2 1456011772

A few benefits:


Easier and cheaper trade between EU countries.
Easier access to a market consisting of 500 m people.
The EU has more weight when negotiating with other countries outside the EU.
Free labour movement means that citizens of all EU countries have the right to work and settle in other EU countries without needing permits which they did before.
EU members have agreed to human rights and working issues which didn't exist in some of member states before they joined.
Member countries recognise each other's qualifications.
Erasmus for students.
Agreements about retirement and health makes it easier for people to settle in other EU countries.
Greater cooperation between police forces etc.
Regulations regarding pollution (beaches, for example) and other environmental issues.
Regulations regarding cartels and monopolies means greater customer protection.
Deregulation of airlines, electricity and gas etc plus reduced tariffs for mobile phones.
No customs payments if you buy stuff in a EU country and take it home.


That's just a few to be going on with.


 

geegee42 1456012587

There are indeed plenty of benefits that's why no one else actually wants to leave it, eventually it will all work fine , eastern European countries where most of our tribes originate from will given time become on par financially with the rest of us. At the moment Germany is bearing the brunt of most of it, socially and financially, they have far more people seeking asylum there than the UK, more migrant workers than the UK, pay more money in than the UK, but then I forgot as we keep getting reminded, they are only in it too take advantage of the low value of the Euro, and Britain's only in it for everyone else to take advantage of their benefits system and get a nice council house for free.

Reveuse-918439 1456044713

Shhh - don't tell them the benefits or they might vote to stay in ;-)

Ullrich 1456046534

Would I be oversimplifying things if I said that leaving is an option for those countries who are economically strong enough to remain independent of the rest of the world. Norway is a great example. Living on their oil and gas, they have already now taken measures to guarantee economic survival in the time after oil. A pension fund of almost 800 billion (today) will most certainly give them a soft landing once oil and gas deposits are depleted. With a population of roughly 5 million they seem to be on the safe side. Is the UK that strong?

Cookatreat 1456057963

Have to agree with you ullrich that Norway has prospered outside the eu , particularly it's fishing industry , which has been good for the environment as well as its economy .  I also think that you are right that those supporting the EU make all sorts of unfounded claims as to the benefits of being in the eu . 


 central to this is democracy , so whatever a county's size or economic state , the future for all the people in Europe is improved by abandoning the United States of Europe project .


 

geegee42 1456058254

No the UK is not that strong, nowhere near, you cannot compare the UK to Norway, but anyway Norway is an affiliated member of the EU, not in it but in it, as in pay for right to trade terms but no right to vote or question anything, same as Switzerland, part of schengen like most of the rest. As I have pointed out before you cannot expect to get all the club benefits without being some sort of member. When we look at the UK we have to ask why have around two million gone to live and work there, the answer to that is simple, the UK needs them, the UK's current growth can only be attributed to the influx of foreign workers, if this influx hadn't happened the UK would still be in dire straits, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

DN-434538 1456058489

Norway has a few problems now because of the collapse of the oil price. They also have to pay a fee to trade with the EU as part of the EEA, that fee is higher than the UK pays per head of population. They also have to sign up to the free movement of labour rules as part of the EEA. For their trade with the EU they must comply with EU regulations but as they are not a member they have no say in those regulations.


Norways predominant reason for not joining the EU was to protect it's fishing industry. This has been very effective, and that industry is a much larger part of its GDP.


Norways prudent Government when the oil price was high in saving for the future has not been replicated in the UK.


There are swings and there are roundabouts.

Cookatreat 1456059437

In response to ormes list from the EU's central information unit ,  when we go through the details the list seems to unravel .


With regard to trade ,in our workplace ,  we find our main export markets are now China and the Far East , UAE  and America  . Different customers have different requirements and that is particular to their business , not the country they live in or the rules of that country . The Internet , ease of communication and ease of travel have been the main reasons for changes in trade in the last 20 years . the eu have damaged trade for many smaller companies , one example are the directives that have ruined the health food markets . 


Erasmus is a useful system , but it has been hugely subsidised by the Eu , it is used to push the political belief of a United States of Europe , and cultural exchange programs are available to all countries in the world , they just aren't publicised as much .


international agreements have assisted the airline industry , the eu have taken part in this , but the uk or France could easily participate in these discussions on their own . The eu have certainly done lots to distort the industry , funded airports in Spain that are uneconomical or haven't opened , funded bankrupt national carriers or prevented free trade of runway slots .


in the uk many qualifications from around the world are recognised , take doctors and nurses from around the world working in the nhs . You can't claim that one for the eu .


as for the free movement of people , the French government have blamed that for interfering with their response to the recent terrorist investigations , the U.K. blames uncontrolled eu migration for damaging the supply of public services , housing and a downward pressure on wages . It has also meant that the uk can not control it's own borders , can not choose the quality of  the migrants  and countries in the east of Europe are now voicing huge concerns about German governments running the migration policy .


happy to answer all your list if would like , 

geegee42 1456061552

I wonder where the UK would be now if their entry had been refused in the seventies, not anyway like Norway that's a fact. The EU works like this, it takes in cash which it spreads around Europe as a whole, a percentage is used to cover the bills, a percentage is used to subsidise all the farmers not just the french ones, yes money is used for mad cap schemes all governments do it, even the English one, England is I'm afraid part of the old world we need now to move forward.when we look at the UK we find most industry owned by foreign companies, most of the infrastructure owned by foreign companies, most of the banking sector run by foreigners, bank of England governer foreign, it seems the English have actually had very little to do with it. The UK has a tradition of underfunding the health service, education services, the road network, in fact as far as I can remember it's always been short of cash, so don't kid yourselves into thinking that it's got anything to do with the EU, out of it will not make any difference to the average citizen whatsoever, still debt, still cutbacks, not Norway no way. I always liked the if everyone paid their tax we would all pay less, no we wouldn't the powers that be would just find more ways to spend it. Being English and having travelled extensively around England into Wales and Scotland I always wondered why a country so small that had made billions through the empire was still so poor, then you see all the big municipal buildings, the big estates with the big stately homes, and you realise what a country it could have been for everyone, this is supposed to be the European plan. Over two thousand years ago a Greek called Alexander knew you had to have all the tribes living together as one or you would never have peace.

sylvw 1456069805

The date for a referendum has now been announced, 23rd June.   Therefore those that have made previous posts,  do they have any further comments, or is it just a case of wait and see.

geegee42 1456070320

Wait and see. At the moment the poles put it at thirty thirty in out thirty percent don't knows and ten percent don't care either way, its the don't knows that's the problem.

orme2 1456070995

As regards the free movement of peoples, it is free movement of EU citizens which is backed by the EU, not free movement of all and sundry wherever they come from.


The UK benefits (or not, depending on which way you're looking at it) from this by having the 'cheap Polish plumber', to use a caricature and by the opportunities its own citizens have to go and work in companies in other EU countries without needing work permits, residence permits etc.  Of course, the UK also has a big influx of people from Commonwealth countries.


The current migrant situation is something exceptional and didn't exist not so long ago.  It would still be a problem if the EU disappeared over night, because the problems in the Middle East and Africa would not disappear with the EU.  Borders between countries don't stop people crossing them  (look at the US and Mexico) - migrants are leaving Turkey, which is not in the EU, to make their way to the EU.  There are also migrants crossing from Russia into Scandinavia.  Russia is not part of Schengen!


 

geegee42 1456072212

I agree orme, a lot don't seem to understand the bigger picture.

Cookatreat 1456072893

Still no postings to explain the lack of democracy in the eu at present . 


 


 I think there are many that see the bigger picture , and it starts with democracy and free choices for the next generation . 


Those in favour of the eu seem to peddle fear , attack the English , talk about tribes and the invasion and forced control of the people !

Chaspuss-413808 1456073629

I must just ask a single question............whay are the ex pats living outside of the UK enjoying the benefits of the EU all complaining about the EU??


 Surely they should be "home" enjoying that top favourate British dish of Curry?..................

Rance-384571 1456073893

"Those in favour of the eu seem to peddle fear , attack the English , talk about tribes and the invasion and forced control of the people !"



Personally it definitely comes across to  me  that those that favour being OUT  offer an enormous amount of cobblers about the money the UK will gain from leaving. Do they think that the UK pay in a lot of money but get nothing back from doing so?. No fool puts in money in to anything if there is not a definite reason that there is a very serious gain from doing so! 



rentagoat 1456074334

Sorry England is part of the CommonWealth.No one has a thing to say about this.Bigger picture.

Cookatreat 1456074465

It depends if it is your money or family's money or someone else's money, politicians seem quite willing to put in other people's money and only get half the amount back , while if you or your friends get a job in the eu , there are large salaries , great benefits and huge pensions .

Chaspuss-413808 1456074637

I had to add this Rance, with my apologies, those who wish the UK to leave the EU..........seem to think the UK will immediately regain the "prestige and markets" lost when the UK joined with the then Common Market. THESE are the same markets that the Americans, Chinese, Indians, Japanese..................all chase. BUT the UK has no manufacturing base to speak of now. the "we won the war" chant is a bit thin now..............look at the money the UK govt. put in to SSI and Tata steel..............which has benefited WHO?????????????? other than the companies involved............Once the UK is cut adrift the companies investing in the UK, in my opinion, will quit and head for countrie in the EU such as Hungary and such. Won't happen??????????? I worked for an "electrinic giant" company  whose name I wont mention..............Firrips........... and even THEY bought Chinese and Hungarian producs, being cheaper.
It's 47 years since I had my Grammar School "Economics" clas with Mr. Richardson.........BUT so much of what he taught us has come to pass...........HOW the HELL did he see so far into the future???


 

Chaspuss-413808 1456074833

Rentagoat, I must reply................ a LOT of the Commonwealth want to be republics and free of the connections wit the UK...............which they see as reminders of colonianism................ ask the Aussies............


 

Cookatreat 1456074858

Seeing the facts of the United States of Europe project has nothing to do with being closed in attitude or experience , some of us have French family , and friends through out the world , 


'people across Europe have seen that the United States of Europe project does not work , lacks democracy and is very corrupt , 


it is time that we all had a choice in the future and not be forced into a superstate designed by an elite .


i meet people across Europe that feel like this , 

Anonymous 1456075084

rentagoat    "Sorry England is part of the CommonWealth.No one has a thing to say about this.Bigger picture."


I suspect that when UK turned its back on them to join the Euro Club they managed to make other arrangements for trade.  UK will have to go to the back of the queue after any Brexit.

Gleaner 1456076248

Boris sides with the out campaign. How does that help in influencing folk?

orme2 1456076844

There is a lot of talk about democracy, but we all have the opportunity to vote our MEPs, just as we can vote our own country's MPs (or not, if we left the UK over 15 years ago - unlike countries like France where you can still vote even if you left France a long time ago).   The EU is, therefore, just as democratic as any country where citizens have a vote.


The fact that those we vote for don't always do what we want them to doesn't change from one country to the next.  It happens in France, the UK, the US, the EU - everywhere.  No doubt there are a lot of laws passed in the UK which many individual citizens would say they didn't vote for.  The only way I can get a country exactly how I want it is to have a dictatorship with me as the dictator!


 

Chaspuss-413808 1456077139

Orme............


that'd be me really..............

Cookatreat 1456077243

Sorry orme , please look into the facts , 


 


the MEP s really don't have any power , they are just there to give the impression of democracy , they just have an advisory role and a chance to discuss ,   


 


again , those in favour of the European superstate are talking about a dream , not reality ,

Chaspuss-413808 1456077489

cookatreat...................
Orme said the same "sort" of conditions apply over the whole world............you think your favourate MP listens to your wishes over his/her party's whip demands???????????

Cookatreat 1456078453

Chasspuss ........ Orme seems to think that we all vote for a MEP and then they decide what goes on and represent us ,   ......... that is not true , it does not happen like that , 


that is either through ignorance , a lie or an attempt to deceive , 


 

orme2 1456080490

"Orme seems to think that we all vote for a MEP and then they decide what goes on and represent us"


Yes, that happens, just as much as it happens when we vote for national MPs.  Before national elections, all candidates tell us what they will do when we vote them in.  MEPs tell us what they stand for and what they will fight for too.  We can only hope that they will do that, just as we can only hope that members of any parliament will represent those who voted for them


MEPs supervise the commission, participate in legislation, pass resolutions and authorise the budget.  It may be that they should have more power, and this may well happen in the future.  Europe is still evolving, just as any country evolves and changes over time.


It is said that the Council is where the real power lies - each country decides who will represent them in the Council.  The presidency changes every six months and each country's (democratically elected) government gets to preside.


 


 

Steve51-907091 1456080836

As I write this there have been over 100 replies so, I don't know if my point has been already addressed.


So, there are 28 member states in the EU.  I assume all are pretty much in the same EU boat but, only the U.K. want a better deal?  The others are happy with their lot?


Am I in a minority in perceiving a British arrogance which, in my view started with Margaret Thatcher, still lingers today?  

Cookatreat 1456080882

MEPs are not even as powerful as the House of Lords in the uk , please don't suggest that the united States of Europe is the same as any democracy , it is not , 


there may be agruments about the role of MPs in the uk , but in an election in the uk you vote for an mp , that decides how the country might be run when they are all added up , 


'when you vote for an MEP it makes no difference at all !!! 


You can say how you would like things to be in the future , but you tried to describe what is happening now , and what you said was fiction , not fact .

Chaspuss-413808 1456081546

So. we accept the "stautus quo"............... sat in and try to change it................or leave and get on wi' it.............
I have my opinion and you have yours. But why are so many in th e"leave" camp living ein EU states???? And of course, I don't mean Britain...........

Chaspuss-413808 1456081645

Apologies for the typos.me UE krybroad kant tripe...........


 

orme2 1456081651

What bit is fiction cookatreat?


 

orme2 1456081808

Chaspuss has a good point about Brexit supporters who live in EU states other than Britain.  Why would this be, I wonder?


 

geegee42 1456082671

Perhaps cookatreat you could explain to people like me who feel that a united Europe is the way to go wether your conclusions are based on fact or something you read in the daily express, I've travelled through france, down into Spain, through into Italy, up into Austria, into Switzerland, through Luxembourg, Germany Belgium and into Holland, I've not seen any signs of some dark empire moving to take control, in fact I was quite shocked I actually found all the people in the country's I visited to be just like me, getting on with their lives as normal, now England, went back a few times last year and it was moan moan moan about anything and everything, I was glad to get back to France. I hope they do vote to stay in, I consider myself to be an English European and although I have no intention of ever going back to live there I would much prefer it if the country moved forward with the rest of Europe rather than backwards on its own. I keep reading all these articles about how they will be free to trade with China and the US, plus various members of the commonwealth, these arguments I don't understand at all, China only wants to sell to the UK, has very little interest in buying anything from them, same with the US, and the commonwealth may still be called the commonwealth but oz is only interested in the Chinese market same with new Zealand, next in line is india, same with them only interested in export, when it comes to infrastructure it seems they prefer to deal with the french, Germans, Americans and Chinese and before long their economy will dwarf the UK's. The UK particularly England has a strong service sector and an economy built around a housing market. There are an awfull lot of things to consider before you vote out, its not just eastern Europeans picking asparagus or having a sense of democracy, its the financial future of the whole country.

Steve51-907091 1456083414

I have not seen or heard anything that says what will happen if the U.K. leaves.  Therefore, in this far from perfect world, is it not a case of better the devil you know...?

Cookatreat 1456083605

I don't read the daily express I'm afraid geegee and my opinions are based on facts .  I have no problem with the English , as you seem to do , and I have a world view and see possibilities for the future and do not want future generations tied to outdated constraints Forced upon them .


i think democracy is the foundation and do not put economics above this , and I would like to see politics focused on the local level and power transferred up from there , rather than power handed down from the top .


i value European neighbours , but not above those from other countries , and wish the best for all . Sometimes we could make agreements on a European level , sometimes on an international level , sometimes with nations from wherever , but they might just agree with our views on that one subject. This has been done by treaties in the past and can continue .


there is no need to have a United States of Europe , and I don't agree with your previous posts that everyone was told in the 1950's or 60's that we were joining a United States of Europe .

Chaspuss-413808 1456084042

Cookatreat................Britain wanted entry into the Common Market for years and, if memory serves De Gualle blocked the entry............however that's history..........
Now they want to throw the dummy out of the pram 'cos the system set up by the Brits attracts others to Britain.............
Must be me..........
I reckon if the net sum leaving the UK is that much more than the net reciepts to Britain even the Labour Govt. would have wanted out..............

Chaspuss-413808 1456084179

I forgot to add........................when was the propaganda "issued" to the populace in the 1950's and 1960's?
I must've missed that bit.........even though I was there in the 60's..........

Cookatreat 1456084594

Its nice to see such faith in our politicians , but  the figures don't add up I'm afraid Chasspuss .


de Gaulle was right to think the uk was not suited to the united States of Europe project , so the Brits were lied to , told it was just a big , open market and even today there is no discussion in the uk about the United States of Europe . At least geegee is a big enough believer to speak the truth on this ,( thank you geegee !! ) 


it would be interesting to discuss de Gaulle , his disregard for the common man and his political achievements , but we might need to open another thread !


the problem we have have is that the United States of Europe project is not working for so many across Europe , certainly Southern Europe is struggling with an economic policy set by the north and for political reasons 

Chaspuss-413808 1456085378

Still............where is the mis information regarding the Common Market in the 1950's and 1960's??????
I don't know enough about the politics to discuss when the idea of "closer political union" came to be...........perhaps I need to look into that.
personally I have thought for many years if the Europeans stopped squabling over old tribal issues they would out produce and out imagine.if I can use that  term.most of the world. Unfortunately tribal issues cloud the matter and so that's that. I still don't see or understand how being outside looking in will help.
Again I see, from my perspective, lots of the "southerners" have signed up for a gravy train supported by the North.............wouldn't the UK if it were possible???????? Human frailty I suppose.owt for nowt.......

Cookatreat 1456086550

Southerners ? As in those from Southern Europe , I don't blame the people living in Southern Europe , I think they were mislead by the EU , big business and their own politicians ,  


certainly Germany gained financially from selling things to newer members , landing the people with vast debts , such as the Spanish and Greeks , and German industry paid huge bribes to individuals to help things through . 


I still think it's about  democracy and flexability , it's not about turning anyone against anyone , or ignoring other countries , it's about returning power to the local level .

geegee42 1456086791

The poorer southerners need to be in the club, they have important things to offer, its how it works the rich subsidise the poor, same as the  US, the few wealth creating states subsidise the rest, we can't all be rich and we can't all be poor, the UK benefits from the poorer states in cheaper food, cheaper labour, its saved hundreds of millions by not having to train staff for the NHS and other various state run institutions, the country has benefited enormously from the influx of well educated European labour, as I've mentioned many times if they weren't needed they wouldn't be there. England hasn't been able to stand alone in the world since it went down the swany in the early seventies and I firmly believe it has even less chance now.

Cookatreat 1456087834

So southern countries supply cheap labour , cheap food , their well educated leave for the north , their  hospitals have trained staff sucked away to the north , their currency value is fixed by northern countries making their tourism less attractive , and they are saddled with huge debts  ? 


But at least your vision is forced through geegee ? ! 


Forget the facts , just keep telling yourself we must have a United States of Europe and the world will end if we object !

orme2 1456088466

The thing is that the world will not end if the UK leaves the EU and the EU will not end either.  It would be a shame, but it would be better that the UK leave rather than be an unwilling member, or a member trying to prevent the development of the EU.


 

geegee42 1456088987

Yes correct cookatreat, but they won't go bust and their tourism is quite competitively priced, they have for many years not been wealthy countries and cash via various EU schemes is helping with their infrastructure which will eventually improve the country's viability and in turn the quality of life of its citizens, its never going to be a profitable institution for every member but regardless of what your opinion is, its still fundamentally better to be in than out.

Cookatreat 1456089471

sorry geegee , I can't agree , I view the people of Southern European countries as equals , even if their economies are not as strong at present ,  that's why democracy counts and probably highlights our central difference , 


i believe in seeing the facts , equal treatment , and all individuals being important .


 

geegee42 1456091779

Of course they are are equels but and its a very very big but, they wouldn't be able to stand on their own, the north of Italy has carried the south for centuries its not a modern phenomenon, the empire fed the UK, the empires of various nations fed those nations and made them very wealthy. The weak are food for the strong always have been, but the principal of the EU is not the building of some dark empire run by some group of unelected faceless people its no more fighting each other, all living trading together, richer states subsidise the poorer states, basic laws which relate to all of us and laws as normal which relate to individual countries, which individual country's are free to make, freedom of movement, whichever country you choose to live in, you have the same rights as the locals, in Spain for instance pensioners get free health care so british pensioners also get free health care, that's probably why quite a few thousand live there. It's not just down to democracy because every country is free to make whichever laws it likes, its also free to set whatever levels of taxation it likes, southern Ireland for instance has very low corporation tax levels, which is why a lot of American companies have offices there, Portugal is attracting more foreign investment because of its low tax rates. People keep harping on about how well Germany does out of all this, but from what I can see most of what they make goes back in the pot. As you can see it will take an awfull lot to convince me that the European union is a complete waste of time.

grannydot-403561 1456129112

The ruling anyone who left the UK LESS than 15yrs ago is eligible to vote is not as simple as that.  You have to be able to prove that you were registered to vote in the UK, during those remaining yrs that make up the 15.  If you left the uk 14 yrs ago.  You need to have been on the electoral roll for that last yr in the UK, at the address you lived at, so if like us it was just a rented property till you moved here, having sold your house. If you weren't register to vote at that address sorry no you can't vote.  Despite having lived in the same district all your life.  That one short term temp address is your deciding factor. 

Anonymous 1456140415

As the old saying goes.......................the devil is in the detail.  That little lot is why I couldn't vote even if I thought it was worth the effort.

JohnP-390097 1456142103

Surely one of the problems(and there are many) is that no-one knows what will happen if we leave the EU, it is all speculation as opposed to things staying much as they are. The politicians are full of **** as usual. boris the clown is not interested in what is best for Britain, he is interested in what is best for boris the clown. It is no secret that he has his eye on the premiership(God help us) and if he can help sway the electorate to get an out vote he knows cameron will probably have to resign leaving the way clear for him to make his move. You can only weigh things up for yourself and base your descision on what you believe and vote if you are able to. Don't listen to the politicians they have their own agandas as always and we don't feature in them.

Chaspuss-413808 1456142923

John P.............


Summed up well!

grannydot-403561 1456144563

I have just read an article fron the telegraph.  Due to an agreement made in 1969, anyone already here, the conditions apply as they were when you arrived, so we should still get pension increments, we will not be illegal immigrants all of a sudden.  The same applies to imigrants into the uk, the ones already there will get the benefits in place when they arrived, anyone arriving after and if the uk exits Europe new rules will apply.

geegee42 1456145591

I'm now beginning to find all this a bit confusing, as in what actually is the plan, stay in that's simple enough, leave?, leave how?, leave as in stay in, pay in and have no say in, bit like Norway, or is it leave the club completely, no pay in, absolutely no say in?. Plan A changes very little, Plan B changes everything. Out completely no part of the EU whatsover, means renegotiation of loads of stuff, its not as simple as take back our borders, make our own laws and trade with who we like. I think if the plan is out completely shift all you cash into Euros or Dollars as quick as you can.

Cookatreat 1456149680

It is sometimes hard to dig out the facts johnp , but you will certainly find the eu spends huge sums of money in promoting its cause and we can see just in this thread that there is a lot of misinformation being spread . 


given the mix of backgrounds in the out campaign , from across the political spectrum , i hope we will get to the facts , we might even be able to discuss info here in a continued open manner .


Geegee ( in the stay camp )has kindly been honest in saying the plan has always been about a United States of Europe , that the 'tribes' of Europe need taking over and controlling , that democracy  a unnecessary feature and the south of Europe need to be used for cheap labour and cheap food . Hopefully geegee will continue to be so honest and give us the facts from that side . 


Hopefully those wishing a more open future , based on democracy and more local government , the no to a United States of Europe camp ! might join you in looking for answers !


 


 

Chaspuss-413808 1456150163

I think ALL sides will be spending lots of money in promoting thier point of view. However, the only overiding word I keep hearing is "Sovereignty"  I have not as yet heard ANYTHING about the costs of, for instance, the waiting times for lorries and passengers getting off ferries increasing.........WHERE the magic new markets for British goods will appear from...........etc........
Now THAT is a story I'd love to hear.


 

geegee42 1456150728

I can see how it went from talked to the fishermen to walking on water. I never said anything like cookatreat tries to imply, I simply pointed out the facts, certain rules and regulations that apply to all EU citizens have to be dealt with by an unelected body, these rules and regs are a very very small percentage of laws and stuff dealt with by the EU. Most of these laws brought in by non elected members relate to health and safety issues, banking standards, food production and food hygiene, animal welfare and the right of free movement of citizens, all these laws make sense, none of them in any way will lead to the taking over of us all by some dark lord, all of them I agree with especially any dealing with animal rights, cookatreat will no doubt vote out, I if I could vote would vote all in completely in, Euro schengen the whole caboodle, English culture, what's that cup of tea and a bag of chips, its all European now anyway, coffee shops and croissants. If they leave I suppose it's back to bacon buttys and a mug of tea.

Cookatreat 1456152226

I really don't think voting out will mean the uk is banned from eating French food , taking holidays in France or buying French cars !!


and you have already agreed that you said that list in previous posts geegee !!


democracy is the key , look at the Greek crisis and see how the people are treated for an insight into the workings of the united States of Europe project ,

Fitter 1456153038

A couple of weeks ago Boris Johnson wrote this in the Daily Torygraph:-


"It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe"


Now, having been in conference with the outers, and what a selection of losers they are, he suddenly changes his mind, and, as others have said, this proves that the problem is not the UK in Europe as such, but Boris climbing the greasy pole to no 10.

orme2 1456153583

Boris at no 10?  And the possibility of his US counterpart Trump being in the White House?  The mind boggles.  All we'll need then is for Berlusconi to get back to the top in Italy to make it a hat trick of bumbling clowns in positions of power.  Ye gods ....


 


 

Ullrich 1456155270

Very true, orme2. If the Russians still had their Jelzin, they would make a fab quartet and I would probably try to reserve a flight to Mars.

geegee42 1456159206

Well it looks like a few of us can see through the smoke, poor old cookatreat needs to go off and find a sense of humour, but anyway out might not be a bad thing for all of us well ensconced over here and paid in Euros, if the UK goes down the swany, pound falls through the floor, its ferry off and pick up the bargains, the pound will fall through the floor in the initial panic, its starting to slide just at the thought of leaving, which must mean money men don't like it.

Steve51-907091 1456166125

The economies of Greece, Italy and Portugal are not doing too well.  Now I'm no economist but, would their plight be due to EU membership?


 

Chaspuss-413808 1456166650

I suspect NOT Steve!

kate.fitch@orange.fr 1456168205

Chaspuss, what makes you  so emphatically  "suspect not?" Statements  so forcefully put need explanation.

geegee42 1456170251

Italy always has been topsy turvey, north has always bankrolled south since the industrial revolution, Portugal has never been an economic powerhouse along with Greece, industrial north made all the money and still does. The idea is northern countries help out the southern countries, this may last a few years or a lot of years, but eventually it will work out OK, its all going through a transitional period, and all depends on how long Germany can bankroll the lot. Regardless of what us Brits seem to think, there are more migrant workers in Germany, more asylum seekers than anywhere else in Europe. It's how ever rough you've got it, someone else has it rougher but they don't always complain as loudly.

Chaspuss-413808 1456170902

frenchdog


I suspect NOT since the EU has tried desperately to support them. The economic circumstances seem to have been home grown. Greece for instance has had very generous public spending for quite some time, which culminated in the demand for their "austerity" measures to remain in the Euro. Similar circumatsnces have hit other countries too. Ireland for instance, when the EU funding ended...........

Vendeegirl-577628 1456171237

Well Geegee42,


Now that you've said 'it will all work out ok eventually' I'll tell my husband he can stop worrying about it all.


Vendee Girl.

Steve51-907091 1456172121

I tried to get an answer to the following point earlier in this thread but, it apparently got overlooked in favour of two or three contributors slugging it out.


To try again then - if EU membership is now such a bad idea why oh why out of 28 members is there only one having a referendum?  Are the other members missing a salient point?

Chaspuss-413808 1456172463

Personaly I have to go with a "gut feeling"..................
Thne powers that be in the UK want to make sure it remains an offshore island...........having it's own sovereignty.or the ones sitting in London want the power. Could be wrong, but for me that's the over riding reason.
Or it just could be someone has thrown the toys out of the pram!

geegee42 1456172732

Yes you can stop worrying, which ever way vote goes it won't change much for years, if out, short term pound will fall, this will be good for UK exports and reduce imports, then things will stabilise and back too boom and bust, if UK votes to stay in it will bring more stability to the EU, which then can get on with business, sorting out debt and bringing measures to stimulate growth, have a bit of faith it will get there in the end. All the stories I read about the EU from various media outlets I have no idea wether it's true or false, some people believe it some don't, but with most stories there is usually an element of truth, but what is the truth, A if UK leaves it all goes pear shaped and UK goes down the swany, B it goes it alone and prospers or C it votes to stay in, refugee problem gets sorted, European economies pick up, Greece gets sorted and being part of Merkel's dark empire gets forgotten about. I wonder what odds either way you can from paddy power.

geegee42 1456173437

Steve 51, we have in Normandy and Brittany living alongside us Brits and French, quite a few Dutch, Germans, Belgians, Spanish, italians and probably Greeks, Portuguese, polish, Czechs, Romanian's and probably a few other nationalities as well, but I've no idea if any of them post on or take any interest in the EU, but I do believe that if various UK media outlets could show that a lot of other countries populations were also unhappy as part of the EU, it would be in headlines to try and convince the UK that it's not just them but everyone wants out.

Steve51-907091 1456176543

Geegee42,


I'm pleased you agree with me.  On many of your earlier posts it has been difficult to know where you are.  A little like Christmas - you don't know what the present is until the wrapping is off.


You seem to believe populations are happy or otherwise.  I believe populations do not understand the big issues and therefore tend to rely on their elected officials for guidance.


Whilst I have your attention, do you think if the U.K. left, it would have any +/- affect on other member States?  In which case, as club members they should have a vote as well.

geegee42 1456178676

I have no idea, but would assume that as most country's elect their governments same as we do and the various populations hav'nt voted in anti EU governments, I would assume most of them are happy. In the UK UKIP are about as anti EU as you can get and got one MP, the Greeks voted in as government who were going to take on the rest of the  EU, but soon backed down when they got back into the real world, I think the people finally realised problem was not the EU it was their own governments failings, same with  France, Italy, Spain, Portugal and a few others, the only thing these countries may have benefitted from was not being in the Euro, they could have devalued their currencies and boosted income through exports, but as we know this doesn't always work. The UK's economy didn't benefit from devaluing the pound it benefitted from the vast influx of labour from within the EU, without this it would still be in dire straits, from what I can see and read about the UK it still is in dire straits, its cut back after cut back and leaving the EU could take it back into the traditional bust again. A friend of my daughters is now returning to France due to the high cost of accommodation in the UK, one of my daughters worked near staines for a while, paid a fortune to live in a converted garage, I couldn't believe the state of the place, nearly every garden had a shed or garage with someone living in it, the village my father lives on had eight Latvian agricultural workers living in a tiny two bed house, not just one house with eight in but about ten houses with eight in each one, we went into a chocolate factories chocy shop and there was a sign on the wall in about six different languages, I asked the assistant what it said, she said it said don't take chocolate bought here back into the factory, it was in  polish, Latvian, Russian, Czech and some others, they all worked in the factory because they were better workers than the Brits, and that's what the English born shop manager said. So you tell me if being part of the EU is a benefit or a hindrance.

Chaspuss-413808 1456179280

I suspect that it'll be difficult to change attitudes here on the forum. People are either for or against.
I knew quite a few people back in the UK who HATED Maggie.........yet after "killing" off the pits etc. most had found better jobs. NOT all, but most. So I guess we'll all have to wait and see. Personally I suspect when it comes to it stepping off the kerb willbe too big a risk and, like Scotland, that risk will proove too much and the vote will be to stay.  I repeat, though, suspect. I have no crystal ball or anything like it;....................but people are resitant to cahneg and if the change has a sniff of danger most will opt for the status quo.  My opinion only...........but I already have comments from friends and family who WERE "outers" who now are wavereing.....................only hours into the campaign

Rance-384571 1456180065

The UK will stay in, money on with Betfair

geegee42 1456180226

It's same old same old too me, nothing ever benefits the people, it benefits a few, but usually the few give a little more to the people, this is normally done because the few fear the people rising up against the few. Socialism doesn't work, communism doesn't work, capitalism doesn't work, the EU is a bit of all of it, so maybe it might just eventually work.

Cookatreat 1456180860

Hi Steve , in response to your question , most governments don't like to give their people a vote because they worry that they might find out the truth and reject the United States of Europe project . 


The Irish people rejected the eu twice in national referendums before the government finally squeezed the vote through in a third attempt and gave lots of empty promises to the people .


on the subject of greece , the facts have again been twisted by some here . there is an interesting programme on Greece on bbc iplayer at the moment , explaining the role of large German companies pushing the Greeks into debt . The Greek people are not without some blame of course , but being in the euro they can't change their currency to help their trade , and are unable to choose their own economic policy , having to obey a largely German led agenda . 


Other Southern European countries , most struggling with huge youth unemployment , are living under an oppressive economic policy set at the eu level , a currency that damages their country's economy , and the lack of freedom to change .


of course geegee sees these southern countries as just 'tribes' to be sacrificed at the alter of the United States of Europe project ,  supplying 'cheap food' and 'cheap labour' ! 


 

orme2 1456181013

National building always takes a long time, so building a union of nations probably takes even longer.  Just think how long it took for the USA to develop.  I think we're talking about a couple of generations at least.  We get so used to pressing buttons and things happen immediately that we forget that not everything works like that.


 

Ziggy Stardust 1456181067

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result


Probably as accurate a prediction as you're going to get anywhere

Cookatreat 1456181171

Of course there was a war when some states tried to leave the United States of America , and then there is the racial history to examine .......... Maybe not such a great pathway to success 

geegee42 1456182210

Did I say they were to be sacrificed, the powerhouse north of England was sacrificed for the good of the south, the south now prospers, the north nowhere near as much, yet a high speed train to Birmingham is deemed more important than job creation for the north, the southern European countries will eventually prosper along with everyone else. I've never been to Greece I have no idea what life is like there at all, I've seen various programs that blame the Greek people, the Greek government, German banks, being in the Euro and the EU itself, but from what I can see the buck stops with the government , always does, you can blame who you like, but in general people who run country's are well educated members of society, they should know what they are doing they are experienced professionals, the government is voted in by the people, civil servants run the state. I bet the out lobby are now making a big list of all the things to blame if it all goes pear shaped and I bet none of their names will be on it. But the big question is no one has stated what the out option actually is, is it the out but in like Norway or out completely out?.

Cookatreat 1456182553

You have no idea about Greece and no idea of what goes on there ......... But you still blame the greek government !! 


Its a question of democracy , free choices for future generations and honesty . 


 

Yellowperill 1456199042

Well Im with you cookatreat, have read this thread with interest and support the majority of your postings, 

Ullrich 1456206835

Cookatreat, concerning Greece you are right, at least partly. What I would like to add, however, is that Greece is/was a country that instituted a social system (as much as I am for it) that the economy simply could not support. A state cannot survive without collecting the taxes they have levied or can permanently spend dramatically more than their income. If we personally used our budget the way Greece did we would be homeless in no time. That created the situation in which the EU showed their full armory of weapons and tools to discipline their members.

orme2 1456218745

The Greek problem is a mixture.  First, the books were 'checked' and adjusted by our dear friends Goldman Sachs to enable Greece to join the euro.  Goldman Sachs, who have nothing to do with the EU council, parliament or anything else - they are a US bank, aren't they?  What was their interest in getting Greece accepted, one may wonder.


Secondly, tax avoidance by rich Greeks is endemic, and there is a long tradition of working on the black there.  This is not wholly the fault of the people because the social security system is different - it is mostly families who help each other financially which is why there are so many retired Greeks complaining about their pension cuts - they can no longer help young members of the family as they once did.


And then I wonder how much money the Greeks are spending re the migrant crisis?  And how much their tourist industry has suffered because of it too?


I'm not an expert on Greece, but MOH has a friend who settled there many years ago after marrying a Greek girl, and much of the above is his take on the situation.


Cookatreat, I didn't suggest that the EU copy the US stage by stage - I just said that these things take time, and used the US example to show that 'Rome wasn't built in a day'.


 

kate.fitch@orange.fr 1456220592

A lot of the population in Portugal are very unhappy with the EU but it has only been forty years since they were under the dictator Salazar and many of them do not have the courage to standup for themselves, The people of Portugal were sold down the river, as we were to an extent, by our conniving and self centred politicians of the day., and because, out of indifference, lack of information  or just plain being lied too the hierarchy in the EU have been able to get things passed into their law and have convinced us, all 500 million of us that there is nothing we can do about it because "they said so". If this were a marriage it would be called abusive and you would be urged to get out, take the kids and go -leave the furniture, the car and even the dog if needs be- just go and start again, you can do it because you will have your freedom. My feeling is if we stand up to the EU and just say no, we are not taking any more, then many more people in many more countries within the EU would take courage from the stance of Great Britain and the wonderful sense of fair play that the Brits display when the chips are down.


I really feel that the majority of people do not understand the scale of the importance of this referendum, I don't think it is too much of an exageration to say it is a war and it has to be won, we must take back our country and our lives


. Phew--that needs a coffee!

Chaspuss-413808 1456221971

Ah.the proletariat must overcome!
Sorry, don't subscribe to that one!  It's a view, but not everyone thinks that way.

kate.fitch@orange.fr 1456225022

chaspuss, to call  the large amount of people who object to being dictated to by what amounts to an elite bunch of self servers "the proletariate"  is, in my view, very condescending, most are hard working and honest people who object to having there lives straightjacketed and their tax money frittered away on swanky limos and lobster suppers for the few.


I use Portugal as my example because I was living there, in the countryside, not down on some posh golf developement, living amoungst the locals who didnt understand, (beccause no one took the trouble to explain to them) that "they"- Portugal, was going to join this wonderful thing called the "Euro"., a coinage that was going to join them to Europe ( how wonderfully modern and much nicer than their old Escudo!). Oh they said, like a class of children being taught quantum physics, well the sun was still shining and the olives continued to grow so everything was ok- wasn't it?  But the next time they went to town their coffee, instead of costing 85 escudos was now a shiney Euro., (at 208 escudos to the euro) You work it out!!   This was just a big con. It doesn't hurt the EU elite, it hurts Manual and Maria, working hard in the hot sun. Then Mr Elite in Brussels, (or is it Strasburgh) says you are not paying in enough, we need more lobster so cough up. Is this not a war? against the little cotery in EUland? Does wearing a suit make them less dangerous?


I should declare myself. I have not lived in UK since 1983 but I am A Brit to the bone, I can't have a vote, that I accept, but I have a brain and I can smell injustice. If I had a vote it would be conservative, we had been self employed before retirement for 30 years, paying into a pension system in UK before we left and in Portugal while we were working there. The reasons we are here are Portugal's climate became too hot for us oldies and because we love France and the French people,  also we had aquired stray dogs and cats  in Portugal and could not afford a property in UK with enough space to keep us and any neighbours happy.   I have been honest about my situation so I would appreciate it if people, if they want to reply to my point of view, did not decend into personal remarks. I have noticed several snide headlines and comments from people who should know better, ( including the right hon D Cameron) so please, keep to the subject. Thank you. 

crozon-879822 1456225697

Well said frenchdog we agree with everything you said.

Chaspuss-413808 1456226025

I'm deviatingting from the subject Frenchdog..........I said it as a cliché.
Your view is your view, I'm sorry you took it as persona, because it wasn't..
What makes your mind up is personal. Myself I reckon it's big money which corrupts. So I don't think it's a "war" on the EU, but I do think the big companies need to be reigned in, and I don't think leaving the EU will do that. I feel myself that the USA is a much bigger menace to the UK than the EU........that said, it's my personal view and if no one else likes it they are welcome to discuss it!
SO for me, out has mor cons. than being in.
Oh, and we've been in France for just 7 years, but I've been a fan of the EU since school in the 70's.

geegee42 1456227477

I have noticed a theme running through the out camp, give us back our freedom, seems to be no thought whatsoever of the financial implications. I don't profess to be an economics wiz but I can see one or two little problems. Worst case scenario, UK votes out, financial institutions panic, pound falls through the floor, UK PLC has sold the family silver to service debt, sold the gold reserves to service debt, has no cash reserves, cannot raise interest rates because millions of people are already up to their necks in debt, game over. Best case scenario, votes out, financial institutions feel UK can manage on its own, no big panic, UK gracefully extracts itself from the EU. Probable scenario, slight panic, things start to settle then housing market collapses and UK enters the bust cycle.

Cookatreat 1456228302

Thank you yellowperill , that's very kind of you ,


'and I agree with your comments too frenchdog ,

Cookatreat 1456229371

Geegee , sorry but again you profess no knowledge of something then pronounce firm belief in a regurgitated. Doomsday scenario !


i think the central theme is democracy and improving the lives of those in our country and in the lives of our neighbours . Economics are important , but they should be second to democracy and free choices . 


Apart from the direct costs , inefficiency and fraud involved with the United States of Europe project ,there are the threats to the economy of remaining in a United States of Europe. Whilst not a fan of large sections of the financial industry , it is a central part of the U.K. Economy and has been for centuries , that is certainly under threat from eu regulations. London's place at the centre of this industry is under threat from the Middle East and Far East , and eu regulations designed to support German and French banks would certainly harm things .


given that the continental countries sell far more to the uk , than the uk does to them , there is no reason to think a trade war or trade embargo would happen , 


'returning farming , fishing and energy policy to a uk government would certainly help those industries , give the uk help with improving animal and enviromental policy and enable a fair and correct implementation of any policy .


at present , the eu sets the amount that can be safe guarded in any uk bank account , this could be raised outside of Europe control . the eu controls what help is given to what businesses , again a uk government could decide its own policy .


with regard to gold reserves , it was mr brown who sold most of our gold at a very low price and bought euros ! 

Steve51-907091 1456229955

Perhaps the 'problem' is no so much with the EU but more with the European Parliament!  As far as I can see, the individual heads of Government have no control over the Parliament and therefore no control over any of the meddling laws it passes.  I feel reasonably sure that MEPs are sensible, logical people, however, I said 'reasonably sure,' because I was thinking of Nick Griffin and Nigel Farage types voting on laws.  

geegee42 1456230751

My scenarios are all correct, democracy is nothing to people who have nothing. Yes the UK could refloat is fishing industry apart from the fact there are no boats, no fisherman and a lot of old fishing ports no longer exist as fishing ports, yes it could grow its farming industry, a lot of farmers have gone bust or packed up, over sixty percent of food is imported, over sixty percent of animal feed is imported, in fact over sixty percent of everything is imported. The most easily exported product of all is banking, simple to up sticks and leave. Yes I agree the UK could indeed do all the things mentioned by cookatreat but over a period of years not months. What happens is this, pound falls through floot, cost of imports shoots up, cost of living shoots up, people can't pay their debts, black Monday through too Friday, this doesn't take years this takes days, then its marching in the streets, then fighting with the police, gets worse and worse. It's better to stay in and implement change from within than have no control whatsover from the outside. Yes the UK imports shed loads from Europe and will continue to do so because it no longer has the capacity to produce it itself, all I ever hear is how well the service sector is doing, and how well the housing market is doing never how well industry is doing. I think if the UK was a business it would probably rank somewhere alongside Woolworths, borrow borrow borrow until the computer says no.

wagers 1456231241

Firstly I agree with cookatreat as your postings seem based on reality
and Geegee you missed the bit where the fees paid to the EU are raised each year (by the UK) by raising funds on the bond market which will leave our children and grand children paying for this fiasco for years to come.
The advantage spoken of, access to a market of some 500 million people does no good when 499 million of them have no money.
Hopefully the folks that can vote will extract the country from the gravey train for the rich, Uk is a net contributor and the majority receive more than is paid in by them.
It is an interesting thread and only a few resorting to insulting others opinions so far.

kate.fitch@orange.fr 1456231436

gee gee, would it be so bad if we all had to reign in a little bit? No pain no gain, the problem is we all like the cushy life but it can't last unless  we face reality. This fantastic market of 500 million is a myth. There may be that amount of people but they are all skint. The market has dropped from 40% to 15%. but "They" don't want you to know that.


What we really need is good honest calm debate.

geegee42 1456233090

Yes it would be bad if we all had to reign in a bit, Greece comes quickly to mind. Last year I returned to the UK and due to my father's health I had an NHS experience, it was an experience I can assure you and the failings had nothing to do with being in the EU, the hospital was overflowing with English pensioners not freeloading EU citizens, the NHS is at tipping point, social services are there as well,most of the countries infrastructure is way past its sell buy date. Leaving the EU will not suddenly turn the UK into some democratic free trading utopia. Europe is going through a transitional period, the plan didn't include the near collapse of the banking sector and the bailing out of nearly everyone which has cost billions of Euros. France is a sleeping giant, well educated workforce, terrific infrastructure, most of its industry still exists and it doesn't rely on house sales and setvices to make a living, Germany seems to be a very well run country, so I'm confident that once we have cleared this all doom and gloom period and the French government changes next year things will pick up, I'm quite confident that Europe will work with or without the UK, I would prefer it to be with the UK but it's not the end of the world if they vote out.

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